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SoxCeltsPatsAndBs Underdog
Rondo, Ray Allen rumored in trade talks... again!
SoxCeltsPatsAndBs

43
votes
SoxCeltsPatsAndBs said the following @ 06/23/2009, 9:46am

Yahoo! Sports reported this morning that Ainge offered the Detroit Pistons Ray Allen and Rajon Rondo for Richard Hamilton, Rodney Stuckey and Tayshaun Prince.

Detroit rejected it, so there's not much to debate here, but I would have taken that deal for sure. I was opposed to trading Rondo in the beginning, but I think Stuckey has the potential to really step up and be a good PG in this league. Very raw, talent wise, as was Rondo, but a much better scorer.

And Hamilton is pretty much a couple years younger Allen, but not as a prolific three point shooter. He runs off of screens all game though and can knock down jumpers in the clutch. Good defender and has a ring.

Tayshaun would be an upgrade over Posey and a would be one of the best 6 men in the league coming off the bench for us. He could provide a perimeter threat if we do end up losing Eddie House as well.

I'm not sure of all the specifics with their contracts, and Dumars would have had a really tough time explaining this trade to his fans if he had agreed to it. But, I guess there's no harm in inquiring. Maybe Ainge does know what he's doing, after all, throwing all these names around before the draft. He pulled off a phenomenal trade in '07 during the draft, I wouldn't be surprised if he wowed us again this year.

Do you guys like this deal???

Underdog

36
votes
Underdog said the following @ 06/23/2009, 12:23pm

No way should the C's do that deal. Ray for Rip is OK. But in a few years when Ray, Truth, and KG are all gone, this will be Rondo's team. Stuckey is not and will never be in Rondo's league as a PG. Stuckey is the perfect combo guard, but he cannot run the offense and distribute, pass, or defend like Rondo. Plus, Rondo might be the best rebounding guard in the league. To give him up now would give the C's a Chauncey Billups-esque case of trader's remorse down the line.

The only advantage to this deal for the Celtics is gaining a decent wing defender and shooter in Prince, but those players aren't so hard to find as to justify severely downgrading the PG position.

And to top it all off, they'd lose about half cap the room they would have gained next year (i.e., best FA class ever) after Ray's contract expires by having Prince and Stuckey on the books.

The only possible way to justify this would be if they were 100% certain they could not get an extension done with Rondo, and I can't think of any reason why they wouldn't do it. Rondo is a star in the making who will lead this team for years to come.
SoxCeltsPatsAndBs said the following @ 06/23/2009, 1:29pm

Obviously, there are some internal questions regarding Rondo, he is involved in every single trade rumor surrounding the celtics. And keeping Rondo will cost just as much because he is going to want a huge contract extension as well, so that argument doesn't hold much validity.

And who's to say that they can't trade those players again as they are trying to do with Ray Allen this year. I think Ainge has something brewing behind the scenes and he has shown the desire to wheel and deal in the past, which led to a championship. So, at this point, I would be more inclined to trust the moves he makes rather than oppose them. He has one thing in mind, winning. And that is something that I have no problem supporting.

All the guys in that 2010 free agent class are going to want huge deals, so who are you suggesting they should hold out for... Please don't tell me you are believing all this ridiculous talk of getting LeBron that has surfaced recently.

I would definitely take a starting 5 of Garnett, Pierce, Stuckey, Hamilton, and Perkins with Prince being the first guy off the bench. We all saw how important defense is in winning a championship and it would be tough to see another team who would be better than those guys.

Hamilton would have to be considered a younger upgrade at this point, with the way Allen performed in the playoffs last year, and Prince would be that Posey figure we so desparately missed last season.

The important thing to keep in mind is this deal is not goin to happen. But if a similar deal was proposed with equivelant pieces, I trust Ainge to do what is best for the Celtics to win.
Underdog said the following @ 06/23/2009, 3:30pm

The extension they can give Rondo now is the affordable one. I don't think 4/28 as one of the commenters mentioned is realistic, but I think something like 5/45-50 probably is. With his playoff performance he has elevated himself into the top tier of PG's in the league right now, and proved himself capable of carrying this team when needed. I can't imagine what these hypothetical internal questions about him could be at this point? Unless you're at a complete financial impasse, you just don't let a player like that go.

Obviously Lebron is a non-starter next year, but the point is, even though they might not ultimately be able to get any of those big name guys, they need to retain the financial flexibility to at least be in the conversations, and a deal such as this both takes that away, and removes the cornerstone player of their post-Big 3 era. Stuckey is not ready to lead a championship caliber team at the point, so moving Rondo hurts them both short-term and long-term unless you can get back a player who brings what he brings to the table. And guess what? There aren't many guys out there who do. Guys like Stuckey and Prince are much easier to find.

I trust Danny to make the right moves. His track record to makes it near-blasphemous not to. But if he deals Rondo and doesn't bring back another All Star caliber player that both gives them a good chance to win it all next year, and can backbone this team after the Big 3 are gone, well then call me blasphemer, I guess.
SoxCeltsPatsAndBs said the following @ 06/23/2009, 4:07pm

You have to look at the whole package, not just focus on Rondo for Stuckey. Hamilton's and Prince's salaries combined equal what Allen will make next season, and they could then turn around after next year and deal Prince who will be entering his final year, Just as the Bucks just did with Richard Jefferson. Stuckey is signed through 2011 and will makes less than $3M. If you compare Rondo's and Stuckey's stats there really is not a huge difference, and that number won't inhibit them from signing some solid free agents in 2010.

Rondo: 12 pts 5 rbds 8 asts

Stuckey: 13 pts 4 rbds 5 asts

Obviously the biggest gap is in assists but Hamilton combined with him only equal one less assist per game than Rondo and Allen.

Keep in mind, Stuckey only started at PG when the Pistons dealt Billups so his stats were a lot more impresssive the 2nd half of the year.

It's all semantics at this point, because reports have already disclosed that this has been rejected. I think a deal like that would be good for the Celts especially if they are able to get younger at SG with Ray Allen being gone after next year anyway.

And, don't get me wrong, I love Rondo, but there seem to be a lot of reports surfacing that a lot of people in the organization, including players and coaches a like, who are saying Rondo is not the best teammate and they have more doubts than assurances with his leadership abilities... It will all be played in the next couple days, so it's always fun and interesting to see different viewpoints leading up to the actual events.
Underdog said the following @ 06/24/2009, 9:00am

He's such a lousy teammate he was just the best man at Perk's wedding and bypassed a chance to be on Team USA. And leadership? Have you watched how unselfish he is on the court, and how he can conversely pick the team up and carry them when needed? Sorry, I'm not buying a few rumors of unsubstantiated BS when my eyes have seen what this kid does on the court.

When Stuckey has three triple doubles in the playoffs and carries a team that's relying on BBD and Scal for major frontcourt minutes to within a game of the conference finals, then maybe he can be discussed as being comparable to Rondo.

And as far as looking at the whole package goes, I think I am looking at the whole package...the one that includes maintaining maximum financial flexibility and their best young player!
SoxCeltsPatsAndBs said the following @ 06/24/2009, 12:03pm

I'm not saying these things about Rondo.. There is yet another article right int he Sports page of this very paper highlighting Ainge's criticism of Rondo.

I am not argung against his talent. I am just saying that if there is a deal out there that will make the Celtics a better team, Aingle will pull the trigger, because he just wants to win, plain and simple. Don't let personal feelings and favortism get in the way of running a first class organization.

If nothing presents itself that would improve the team, than he'll stand pat, because I think we do have a great shot with that same returning starting 5, provided they stay healthy. But, if anything definitely needs to change, it is that bench... we desparately need to add some serious pieces if no significant trades are made.
Underdog said the following @ 06/24/2009, 12:42pm

Well, at least this time it's a direct comment from Ainge, and not rumors and speculation.

So he's got some things to work on. Fine. What player his age doesn't? Especially at the most mentally demanding position on the floor? So he's got a little bit of growing up to do regarding being on time and whatever? Fine. What person his age doesn't? If they're going to trade him to make the team better, that's fine, too. But it still has to be a move that makes them better not only next year, but in the future, as well, because when Rondo does fully mature, he's going to be a tremendous player in this league for many years. Let's not throw him out with the bathwater like they did with Chauncey Billups and Joe Johnson just because he's not a finished product yet in his early 20's!

He still needs to improve his shooting, but without him, there's no one on this team who can handle and penetrate like he can, and that opens up pretty much everything else they do on offense. If he goes, they'll need back a PG who can do pretty much all of the things he does. Anyone else who fits that description even available? Wonder why? Because they're hard to find!

This team can be beefed up for another title run through FA without having to give up Rondo. Make a play for someone like Ariza or Varejao to help the frontcourt. Maybe even an Artest or Rasheed Wallace if they're willing to take the MLE to play for a title. Nab a decent backup PG like maybe a Ronnie Price, and you've got your team re-loaded for another title run, you still keep your best young player, and you've got more options in 2010 with Ray's contract off the books and another year to evaluate whether Rondo can evolve into a max contract player, or you can just trade him then.


SoxCeltsPatsAndBs wins the slugfest!

Comments

JohnnyTheFox posted @ 06/23/2009, 12:33pm

Not at all! One year with Ray is better than ...none, Rondo keeps improving and House has to stay too. Never change a winning team- and C's would do the repeat this year if KG and Powe stayed healthy. Greetings & salutations from the biggest C's fan in Germany! :)

one-n-done posted @ 06/23/2009, 12:54pm

The deal doesn't look horrible, but I would hate to get rid of Rondo. He will be a top 3 point guard in a couple of years if not this coming season. He's their best all around player and with KG on a major decline, the C's will need Rondo even more so.

adam posted @ 06/23/2009, 1:28pm

get rid of stuckey and rondo and add picks and/or fringe players to the deal and it would work for me.

SoxCeltsPatsAndBs posted @ 06/23/2009, 1:31pm

The problem with becoming a top 3 point guard is that he is gonna want top 3 PG money after next year... So for a guy who can't knock down outside shots with any consistency, or free throws, for that matter, i'm not sure he would be worth what he is gonna be demanding.

johnnyban posted @ 06/23/2009, 2:19pm

there is no way that would work it sounds decent rip, prince and stuckey but i dont see them coming out and winning us a championship. stuckey is no where near the talent of rondo stuckey is like house. The rumor was by low executives so no need to worry if they are trading rondo away it better be for a person that will help us win a championship. cause with all these rumors its looking like its going to get tougher with the cavs looking for someone like vc to help..

JesusShuttlesworth posted @ 06/23/2009, 2:48pm

We won't need to give Rondo a giant contract next year. maybe 4yr/28mil. I say we just let Allen walk next year and try to sign a player like dwayne wade or brandon roy. Or trade Allen next offseason for a younger SG along with somebody else in the deal.

SoxCeltsPatsAndBs posted @ 06/23/2009, 3:05pm

How are you gonna trade Allen next off season since he'll be a free agent??? That makes no sense... And also, we might not give it to him, but he'll be asking for a huge contract, which basically translates into Rondo signing with another team.

JoeCorrao posted @ 06/23/2009, 5:24pm

Throw in Baby...get lucky in the draft and sign wade in 2010?

johnnban posted @ 06/23/2009, 6:01pm

i just cant see us throwing away rondo like that unless its a top caliber player. i do agree we need some help off the bench and that trade would give us someting but that would leave us without a solid PG. if we need to move anybody it should be someone like allen where he is still a excellent player and has good trade value where you can get a few players to help the bench and throw in another player to sweeten the deal. but personaly i want to see the big three together for 1 more year when he becomes a free agent then we can hit the free agent market and get some decent talent.

SoxCeltsPatsAndBs posted @ 06/23/2009, 6:12pm

For those of you who are in denial about the rumors surrounding Rondo's character and ststus with the C's, check out this Chad Ford interview on ESPN:

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=4280665&categoryid=2459788

walter posted @ 06/23/2009, 11:23pm

This proposed trade is so ludicrous it makes me sick. There is NO substitute for Rondo's speed. And were talking about these older declining players who could not come close to winning a championship in Detroit. I like Thabeet and having him spend some time around Garnett wouldn't be a bad thing. He would also give us size to contend with the Lakers. If there was a trade that could be made for that No. 2 pick..Do it. If we lose Rondo, it's back to mediocrity... That is, unless he himself does not want to play here

jhonny posted @ 06/23/2009, 11:50pm

Rondo for Tony Parker...straight up

A Game posted @ 06/24/2009, 12:37am

I Love Rondo and Allen. Allen's Expiring contract will not only help other teams(These trades we here about), it will help us land the prize I want...D-Wade. 20 plus million will lure anyone looking to grab the ring and get paid. People in any sport now covet the tradition of winning which is again Boston. Through my travels through blogs it stuns me how many people do not understand how good Rondo is. Keep this team. See what happens. Draft a Jeff Adrienn and let Big Baby go. The Wade contract could be set up to pay high at its end right when Pierce or KG is on the outs. This team, as assembled, would have rolled on through. They played the toughest team, matchup-wise (Orlando: 6-10 forwards, guards everwhere) to 7 without KG. Patience my friends/Danny Ainge...We will continue...

A Game posted @ 06/24/2009, 12:50am

Imagine this lineup provided a good extension plus conversation with Rondo...PG-Rondo, 2G-Wade, SF-Pierce, PF-KG, C-Perkins. Bench: House, Powe, Allen, Pruitt, and free-agent/draft picks(Both draft picks and free agant pick-ups under Ainge have been nice).

Underdog posted @ 06/24/2009, 9:17am

I watched that Ford interview...sorry, there isn't an ounce of substance in anything he had to say...100% pure unadulterated speculative BS.

Evil2009 posted @ 06/24/2009, 9:22am

Another made up scenario to give sportswriters and sports show talking heads an excuse to get paid. Rondo is developing into one of the better point guards in the league so lets trade him. This is why these guys write opinions instead of running teams.

Marcus - Brazil posted @ 06/24/2009, 9:56am

Ainge, keep Rondo in Boston!!!
In future, he will be MVP.

Celtics GURU posted @ 06/24/2009, 12:20pm

DONT TRADE RONDO UNLESS ITS FOR LEBRON END OF STORY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Celtfan4life posted @ 06/24/2009, 2:42pm

What's this "shopping Rajon Rondo and Ray Allen" crap! Both men were meant to be Celtics. The Boston Celtics are close to perfect the way the roster is now. The only problem was the injuries they sustained last year, "especially with loss of Kevin Garnett's help." Boston would have breezed past Orlando and pushed Cleveland aside to face LA and repeated for an 18th title. Boston is still the better team in the NBA, they just lacked health and KG. If anything, they can use another big man inside the paint to help Perkins and KG. One more fact, if Rondo learned to shoot consistent 3's like Allen, House and Pierce, that's an instant 10 to 15 points on the board. "Keep Allen and Rondo"!!! the team chemistry will decline if the core players are removed and Celtics.

Juggernaut posted @ 06/25/2009, 11:06am

Rondo is the best PG the C's have had since Dennis Johnson. DJ, by the way, had supposed "character issues", yet he was a major factor in the success of those 80's teams. Rondo is a very similar player and has risen to be one of the top PGs in the league. Stats don't always tell the story. You can have two guys with nearly identical stat lines, but you just know that one guy impacts the game more than the other.

I'll give you two stat lines, you tell me who you want...

A) 23/9/6
B) 21/12/5

One guy is the better scorer, they both play the same position, so you might say, "Guy A gets me a few more buckets every night, a couple more assists, I'll take him."

A is Antoine Walker, B is Kevin Garnett. Both from the 2001 season. We know that 'Toine, while a good player, was not in the same class as Garnett. The stat lines were similar, but they did entirely different things for their team. That's the difference between a Rondo and a Stuckey. Rondo is going to completely disrupt the game plan of the other team with his speed, defense, and ability to keep pushing the ball.

Keep Rondo.

Dan posted @ 06/25/2009, 12:38pm

This debate comes from the talent perspective. Rondo is a talent and we don't want to have a repeat of the Billups situation. Now the one thing that is slowly leaking out is that management feels he doesn't have the character to harness all the potential he displays on the court. How do we really know what goes on in the locker room or in the practice facility. Let’s not forget the infamous video of Rondo blacking out on Rivers as someone tried to close the curtain so the media wouldn't catch a glimpse. If knock on Rivers is that he's hard on Rondo, well let’s not forget that Rondo plays his position. If anyone were qualified to point out shortcomings or mistakes at that position, it's Rivers. Also the history with Tubby Smith seems to be very telling. He's not known as being a difficult guy; he had a young talent in Rondo, yet was not too sad to see him go. He'll even admit that Rondo has a tremendous gift, but also carries a big chip on his shoulder. He’ll even go so far as to say that Rondo has some growing up to do (See a pattern developing)
Rondo is not a leader on the team. Sure you can point to the 'new big three' and say that's the reason, but as a PG of a team, you have to be a leader.
I also didn't take Danny's comments as a scarlet letter or an admission that they are trying to trade Rondo. Seriously, why would you bash a guy you are shopping, that would only diminish what you could get in return? Danny's a pretty smart guy (despite what you think about his basketball IQ) and maybe, just maybe, he said what he said to motivate Rondo to work harder. When I see Rondo, I don't see a hard worker. Ray, Paul, KG....hell, even Scal work their asses off. If Rondo worked that hard, he'd be the "Max contract" player that he wants to be.
Boston fans should have learned that attitude counts for a lot. If Rondo isn't happy to work for a championship contender and he doesn't want to constantly improve his game, then he's going to hurt the team. Rondo reminds me a lot of Antoine Walker, not on the court, but in interviews. Antoine was our basketball equivalent of Manny Ramirez.
If Danny trades Rondo, with or without Ray, maybe it’s a play for the much hyped 2010 free agent class. If Rondo and Ray were gone and replaced with a James, Wade or Howard, Danny would be hailed as the Theo Epstein of basketball. By the way in that scenario, Pierce and KG would be here with one of those names.
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