Chad takes the lead. I love the Sox and Pedey as much as anyone but HanRam is the REALLY REAL deal. He doesnt have an April/May where people beg for him to be benched and then win the MVP at the end of the year. He is a real MVP candidate every month of the season, if his team just did better people would realize it.

All SS will have a lower fielding % than a 2nd Baseman. Also, .009 is alot for a difference in a career for OBP. Its not really as close as you want it to be. Also, speed is a difference (I know Pedey can steal a few bases, but not a real "threat" like Hanley is), pitchers need to keep his speed in mind, while Pedey mainly surprises pitchers. Hanley is the superiour player, not much of a question. I love Pedrioa, but he was helped by an unusally weak MVP pool last year.

Also, Pedroia will be more expensive soon (will make about 5-6 million a year, the 2013 and 14 will make 10 million+)

Yeah, there's no question Hanley Ramirez posseses more talent and skills. I don't think there is a player in the league that does more with what he has to work with than Pedroia, but it's still pretty clean cut argument for me, that Hanley is a more talented and skilled player. But, we were able to get Lowell and Beckett for him and with those two and Pedroia, we've managed to gring home to World Series titles. So, I'm not lamenting his loss too much!

Sorry, but this isn't much of a contest...

Pedroia, OPS+ in his first three seasons...

2007 - 112
2008 - 122
2009 - 100

Hanley Ramirez, first four seasons...

2006 - 116
2007 - 145
2008 - 146
2009 - 141

Pedroia is merely 'pretty good' with the stick while Hanley is in the class of the elite hitters.

Even when Pedroia won the MVP his VORP was 60, compared to that of Hanley's 78.6. Hanley has ranked 2nd in that category over the last two years (trailing ARod and then Pujols). That's him on a bad team. If their roles were reversed and Hanley was playing for this team no one would be talking about Pedroia.

I think he's a fine player, but we far overrate how great he is around here because he's scrappy and all that, similar to how we overrate our catcher for his supposed abilities.

Hanley, despite his defensive issues, is the superior player. Case closed.

Hanley signed a 6 year 70 million dollar contract, he is more expensive. Pedroia plays in the AL East, arguably the toughest division in baseball. Pedroia beat out A-Rod, Kinsler and a dozen other players better than Hanley for the MVP, Hanley lost to Rollins in 2007.

Both are great players but have to give the edge to Pedroia. Pedroia is a great batter and feilder making him a more rounded player

johninfla....please name the 12 (or more) players in the AL that are better than Hanley.....I dare you.

Evan Longoria, Kevin Youkilis, Ichiro, Justin Morneau, Mark Teixeira, Joe Mauer, Ian Kinsler, Dustin Pedroia, Jason Bay, Carlos Pena, Torii Hunter.

Haha, Johninfla has you beat Chris. But seriously, I'm going to have to go with Dustin(pedy is repulsive nickname) not only because he is my favorite(& I do mean FAVORITE), but because he is the more rounded player, & his achievements are greater.
Oh, & Chris "I love Pedrioa, but he was helped by an unusally weak MVP pool last year" So, Kevin Youkilis...?

lol u serious i love dustin he the best player the sox have but hanley is a better player... just look at what the red sox scouts draft!!! everyone they drafted turn out to be a good pro player!!!!

I honestly can't believe the homers are stacking the vote for Pedroia. He is nowhere near the player Hanley is. The 'intangibles' argument sounds so Jeter-esque. I don't get how he is the 'more rounded player' the only thing he is better at is defense and he had to be moved from SS to 2B because his SS defense was sub par. If Hanley gets moved it will be to CF, which is an incredibly important position still.

Put it this way, if the Marlins offered Hanley straight up for Pedroia today, would you even hesitate to make that move? I'd help Pedroia pack his bags and offer to drive him to Logan....and I'm a big fan of the guy.

Bay? Tori Hunter? Carlos Pena? You can't really believe that these people are better do you? None of thier numbers stack up (Tho Im sure you will find 1 stat that they are close on.) Even though thats only 10 (remeber, I said other and Pedroia isn't counted because you already said him. Even Youk is debatable, since they have (over a career) roughly the same average, Hanley Beats him in Runs, Hrs, RBI, Walks, OBP, Slg, OPS....the list goes on. JohninFla...you got served.

As much as I love Carols Pena's .230 average, Torii Hunters .280's and Jason Bays average .280s-.290s with 30 hrs and 100 rbi, i think Hanleys .300+ with 30+ hrs and 100+ rbis and runs and 30+ stolen bases beat at least a good amount of your "better players"

He would not be happy in Boston either, we do not retaliate for HBP immediately. Yankees 9 Boston 3.

Jeter-esque? Do you honestly believe he will not be in the Hall of Fame? Can you honestly say you do not cringe when the bases are loaded and he comes up? No matter how we feel about the Yanks the bottom line is Jeter has gotten the job done over the years and so does Pedroia. Just ask the Yankees how well that works out for you by just looking at the numbers. Everything matters. The RS reiterated that when they traded Manny because his intangibles became too much, despite his numbers.

When I chose Dustin I looked at their career numbers and their projected for this year. Chad brought up walks, Dustin is projected to have 3o more walks then Hanley this year as well as 50 percent less strike outs. Hanley beats him in power, hands down yes.

But Dustin appears to be in better shape and more durable, he is rarely day to day, he pushes himself to succeed at greater heights then his god given talent and he has already reached two accomplishments that Hanely has not. MVP and most hits. They are two very different types of players that bring different strengths and weaknesses to the table. I would not pack either of their bags.

Beckett won us a World Series. End of story.

This is only a debate b/c Pedroia plays in Boston and Hanley plays anywhere else. It is impossible to convince Boston-centric people about the worth of other teams players. Remember, Garnett for Al Jefferson and how way too many people said," why trade for KG when you have the next KG.?" Or even better was when people were saying they wouldn't trade Ellsbury straight up for Johan Santana. These are the same people. People around here give their players undue and unfair advantage b/c they love them. It is immature sports analysis. Don't get me wrong, I love Pedroia and wouldn't want to trade him for MOST players in MLB but Hanley...come on.

Now I love Pedrioa, and I certainly think the trade for beckett was a great trade, and it turns out for both teams, lets be honest. Hanley beats Pedrioa in AVG, HRS, RBI,SB (if you think this will tie your an idiot), SLG, OPS. Average right now ISNT EVEN CLOSE (.330 for Hanley, .293 for Pedrioa), HRS- Hanley is on pace for almost 5 times as many, .200 poitns higher on OPS,

RSwomenROCK's last arguement basiclly says Pedroia is better than Babe Ruth. Ruth never did that, so Pedroia is in a class above Ruth?

Wow I was going to reply to Mike but sitting here I've watched Chad's votes jumped 15 in 15 minutes. Guess I'll sit back and let those fans debate it. Nice to see so many voting though! Really a great question especially with Hanley's first career appearance coming in Fenway coming tonight.

Hanley Hands down

Juggernaut, Pedroia was not moved from SS to 2B because his SS defense was subpar. He was moved to 2B because the Red Sox had Hanley Ramirez coming up as a SS at the same time. Not only that, but whie Pedroia was coming up, they still had Garciaparra (whom I think they thought was going to be a career Sox) and then they traded for Cabrera and signed Renteria. SS was full for the Sox. That's why Pedroia was moved. He was always an above average defender, even at SS.

Pedy prevents more runs than Ramirez drives in. Pedroia is the league MVP. I don't think Hanley was even considered. Ramirez plays shortstop like Lugo. All around, Pedroia is the better player

This is a tough debate because they are kind of different players. Hanley hits for more power, while Pedey puts the bat on the ball more often. Pedey is a better defender, but Hanley is the more accomplished base stealer. Pedey has done more with less, which is admirable, but I think it's clear that Hanley's ceiling is higher. He just has more physical tools to work with and grow into.

Hanley Ramirez.

No contest.

More talent and tools I take Hanley...Pedey has the intangibles, the swagger, and knows how to win...He's a winner...Does Hanley move a runner to 3rd consistently?? Does he dive and make an amazing, run-stopping defensive play?? I'll take Pedey cause he's a winner and he has that killer instinct...

Hello, National league anyone? I think we all need to recognize that any numerical assessment should take in to account the difference in the pitching in the league. GM's were making a .5 to 1.0 adjustment in pitchers ERA to compensate, so what would that do to hitters? Hanley's walk rate, slugging, and average would all be down. This is a much closer contest than it appears numerically.

Quick question. If you are pitching a no hitter in the 8th inning, who do you want behind you defensively, Ramierz or Pedroia? If you are one run behind in the 8th with runners on in a crucial game, who do you want up Ramierz or Pedrioa? I pick Pedy in both cases. A proven gamer.

Pedroia is the obvious standout. RSwomenRock knows how to state her case!

Jon, coming out of college there were many doubters that Pedroia could stick at SS because of his sub par arm and range, he would be better suited for 2B.

I don't get how RS can say that Pedroia is in 'better shape'. Cmon, that's just laughable. Hanley has been a physical specimen since he was picked up and he's a far better athlete than Pedroia could dream to be. Can we stop overrating our players to these levels? The homerism is just over the top.

When I said 'Jeter-esque' I was referring to how we've let his intangibles cloud our judgement as to how good of a player he actually is. It has nothing to do with comparing the two players. Pedroia isn't even the best player on the team, but Hanley is in the top five in the league when it comes to best players.

I don't want to get into a long argument about strikeouts, but that's an overrated stat. Plenty of players strike out a lot but produce a ton. Pedroia puts a ton of balls into play, but there is little evidence that those balls into play that become outs end up being any more productive than a strikeout. Hanley walked 92 times last year and topped Pedroia by a large amount. Pedroia is on pace for 93, both are outliers in terms of their career averages.

Again, Hanley's VORP blows Pedroia away each year. He ranks second while Pedroia is lucky to crack the top 10. Hanley is the better player, arguing otherwise is silly.

Let's not forget that Hanley isn't surrounded by All Star talent like Pedroia is, where he can be protected by some of the better hitters in the game in the 2-spot. Hanley has to carry that team.

Hanley is a better pure hitter, but Dustin is a better pure winner...I'd rather have a really successful winner on my team then a great hitter who can't crack the playoffs

ya but juggernaut, hanley CAN'T carry the team.

This is such a ridiculous conversation. Hanley is elite, pedroia is good. Sometimes it is embrassing being a Boston fan when these ridiculius conversations arise and all the yahoos come out.

"Sometimes it is embrassing being a Boston fan when these ridiculius conversations arise"

Yes. Like when someone calls the reigning AL MVP merely "good."

So you can be an elite player and not win the MVP or a Gold Glove? And MVP and Gold Glove players are not elite?

Pedroia is a fun player to watch, and he's a gamer.

but Hanley Ramirez has a chance to be one of the greatest shortstops in the HISTORY OF THE GAME. His talent is far above and beyond anything Pedroia could dream of, and therefore his ceiling is unlimited.

And I don't think Pedroia could carry the Marlins singlehandedly, either Cindy

I firmly believe that Hanley Ramirez would have had a MUCH better chance at winning awards if he was on a team like the Red Sox. Being on the Marlins hurts his chances significantly.

While I'm certainly not arguing that Ramirez should have won a Gold Glove, I do think that he could have won Rookie of the Year and MVP in a Sox uniform. He puts up WAY better numbers than the player who won, Pedroia

Individual stats - Ramirez.
Who would I want on my team for 162+games? Pedroia.
Stats don't win games, players do.

Hanley wins if what you are looking for is great numbers. But a more interesting question is would you trade Dustin straight up for Hanley. I don't think I would, for these reasons: 1) Dustin's personality and intensity contribute to his team's success; 2) he plays in a much tougher league, not to mention division; 3) he is a proven post-season performer.

Some guys help make their teams winners; others put up great numbers while their teams are frustrated (A-Rod is the poster child). I'm not saying Hanley is A-Rod -- but he hasn't had the opportunity to prove that he has the intangibles that lead to WS victories. Dustin has. I would not trade them straight-up.

Would Hanley provide same stats if he were on RS team instead of small market/crowd FL Marlins? He had chance to come back by signing with the RS in few yrs but Hanley opted for taking 6yr/70 mil to stay with the Marlins. You have to deal with the loss of him by trade for Beckett/Lowell. He won't come back to Boston anytime.

To me it's kind of like comparing A-Rod and Mike Lowell. In terms of talent and production, Hanley Ramirez IS better--this isn't really debatable. And for playing 162 games, we's going to win you more games--more Win Shares for sure (sorry BDamon, PLAYERS make the stats, and stats DO win). But in a tight spot? For one AB in a WS? The guy to make the great fielding play at a critical moment? Yeah, there I would take Pedey for sure. Sorry though RSWR, Hanley's just "better"--that was the topic. If it were "who would you rather have?" that might be harder to decide...

To expand on my comments earlier, here are Hanley's numbers against the AL in his career 230 AB's (roughly 40% a season): Average: .287 OPS: .769 IT'S THE NATIONAL LEAGUE FOLKS, YOU CAN'T DO A HEADS UP COMPARISON.

Ridiculous ... Both have established themselves early in their careers as elite players, but they are completely different players who fulfill different needs. Another awesome, pointless debate from Boston.com!

How much do the sox spend a year compared to the marlins? The sox will always be competitive in the current major league system which will significantly increase mvp's, gold gloves, and all of the other garbage that writers vote on who get to see boston and new york 100 times a year while the marlins will be lucky to be on national television once. MVP's in the current major leagues are not a barometer to judge a player. There are so many teams that basically have little or no chance of competing which eliminates alot of great players chances for awards and exposures. I dont care how many mvp's pedroia wins, he is not elite. A good player can win an mvp. Hanley is elite. Look at the numbers. The same people arguing in favor of pedroia are the same morons who would rather take mike lowell than A-Rod. Im sorry, there isnt an argument. Go listen to weei and watch nesn and ignore the rest of the majors besides the al east. Boston fans sometimes truly are embarassing.

I think Dustin Pedroia is better, hes been MVP and Rookie of the year 2 times running and he has a golden glove at 2nd base, he deserves it too. I really like Dustin, even though hes in a slump, after all it happens to everyone, look at Papi for example he only has 4 homeruns so Dustin's got nothing to worry about. Neither do we :] just let Pedroia do his stuff and everything will turn out all right in the end, slumps don't last that long :]

To address the question "Who's Better", with the body of work at this point it is Pedroia. He has more MVPs, Rings, and awards in general. Who has more potential, maybe Ranierz, but potential iis not realized until it becomes real. Harry Aggain had the potential to be one of the truly great first basemen in history, but his life was cut short. Tony Conigliaro had the potential, and was well on his way, to being a great outfielder, but life delt him several severe blows. At this point, Dustin has proved it, Hanley might. Period.

Who's going to win the battle of Pedey v. Hanley during these 3 game series starting tonight?

you people are idiots. Hanley is a SS. Pedroia is a second baseman.

Hey, is not it, Boston, Dustin Pedroia, but obviously, that the stadium is 100% is the motor of the Red Sox, the transmitting an impressive energy.

And what happens?

Dustin Pedroia has already won

Rookie of the Year
Most Valuable Player
Gold Glove
Silver bat

and without more

In return Hanley is a strong player in homerun
Pedroia is hits, big plays, 150% in the game and more

One - to - one comparisons between baseball players, especially those who play different positions are, IMHO, useless exercise. You need nine guys to succeed and the formula is like a Rubik's cube. The Sox with Pedroia are World Champs. The Marlins with HR are not. I'll take Pedey.

Would people please stop citing MVP awards as evidence of Dustin's superiority? MVP (& CY Young, for that matter) are based on sportswriters' votes. Which is to say that they are hardly an accurate measure of anything other than a player's popularity among a small subset of people whose background is in words not numbers.

This is so stupid. It's Hanley's fault he's saddled with a bad team and a $23mm payroll in Florida? I can't believe he's being criticized for being being surrounded by All Stars like Pedroia is. The logic here is just ridiculous.

Pedroia's a 'winner' because he plays for a winning team. My god, we're sounding so much like Yankee fans these days. This was their exact argument for Jeter being better than Nomar not that long ago. Intangibles! Winning! Scrappiness!

Hanley. All day every day.

Are you crazy?
What's the point of comparing Pedroia and Hanley? They playing in different positions, and different roles.

Hanley is a better player but Pedroia wear a Red Sox uniform to play baseball and that's enough to me cheer he up...

Pedroia in front of 38,000 every night when it counts. Hanley does it in front of 3,800 with zero pressure. (and he still can't catch it)

Jug, if intangibles didn't matter, the team with the best stats would win most of the time. But they don't.

Even in best times, Jeter's intangibles DID make him the superior player, in terms of contributing to wins.

While i understand the purpose and the timing for this discussion; it's way to early to compare both players. There's so many factors ( who are different for each person ) to consider that waiting is the only to do if you want a fair analysm of both players.

This is not a tough decision at all. I love Peddy and would not trade him for many people but if the marlins said We will Trade Hanley straight up for Peddy I would say go for it. Move hanley to second base and there goes the errors, then He is far superior in every category. Peddy and Hanley are both possibly future hall of famers, but I would want Hanley anytime.

Better hitter (leads in more batting stats): Rameriz
Better fielder (leads in most/all fielding stats): Pedroia
Better player (always hustles, performs well in pressure situations, inspiation for teammates): Pedroia

You can not compare them to each other in fielding they play in two different positions

The question is who is better? Ramirez or Pedroia. As a homer, I would say Pedroia, because I love the way he plays, and the intensity he brings to the clubhouse. As a fan of baseball, I'd have to say Ramirez. His tools are just plain superior to Pedroia's, not matter how much he makes out of what he has. It's like saying who's better, Bird, or Jordan?
Hanley Ramirez is the physically gifted, and better player, but I'd rather have Pedroia every day of the week, and for doubleheaders on Sundays.

Numbers are not the only aspects that build a good player. What about Eric Chavez or Chipper Jones, great players, but very fragile players. You would argue their fragility trumps their numbers if Theo wanted to trade for one of them. Numbers alone does not cut it.

I'm not much of a numbers guy. For me it boils down to this question; which player would you want up with 2 outs in the 9th in a 2 - 2 tie, Rameriz or Pedroia. For me it's Pedroia hands down.

This not even a post, you have all this pedroia supported, because they are Boston fan, Not even a contest Hanley

Pedey gets an atta boy for his fielding, but thats about it. Oh, and the fact that he won a weak ROY contest (hello Delmon Young) and a MVP contest where some of the leading candidates (Hamilton, Quentin) shot themselves in the foot. Meanwhile, H-Rams lack of support in these popularity contests is almost criminal. Maybe you can call it the pujols-philly effect. If Hanley is playing baseball where people notice or he puts up the same numbers in the AL, its his. Its only a matter of time anyway.

Dustin is a nice player, all in all above average for his position.

Hanley is an offensive force you can compare with anyone in baseball. With that kind of production you can deal with the 20 errors a season - he might lose you two games with the glove but he'll win you 10 with his bat versus league average for the position.

Hanley Ramirez everyday of the week, the only issue with him will be his attitude. In five years with DP's violent, Jeremy Burnitz swing he may be broken down. Hanley Ramirez is a pure hitter. A rare combination of speed, power, and average. DP's power is forced through a swing only someone in their early 20's can handle. Watching baseball for as long as I have, you realize the danger of an injuries on a player's career. Finally, 2nd base is a far less important position defensively as SS. NO BRAINER!

A SS who hits over 40 hrs, steals better than 50 bases and hasn't reached his potential.. Hanley is da man..............

Hanley Rameriez possesses the superior physical skills, but I would rather have Pedroia on my team than Ramierez if the choice were either/or.

Arguing that Pedroia is better because of his awards really makes no sense since Hanley was not in competition for any of those titles.

Hanley's a great hitter and at this pace will be one of the all time greats. The two players aren't in the same league when it comes to offensive production - and I'm a Pedroia fan.

I love people who are "not about the numbers" when the numbers don't work in their favors. When they don't have numbers they just grasp for intangibles.

If you don't think Hanley Ramirez wins this hands down then I'm probably talking about you.

If you're just talking who is the more skillful offensive player, sure Ramirez is better than Pedroia. But much more goes into the decision of who you want on your team. Pedroia is a leader, he is a hard-nosed competitor, and he's more skillful in the field. Those things -- and a pretty good stick -- make him my choice.

If Hanley played for Boston and Pedroia played for the Marlins would this even be a topic of discussion? Hanley would be a god and Pedroia would be some scrappy white guy playing for a bad NL team (that would be worse off without Hanley).

Can't believe this question as they don't even play the same position. I'm a huge BOSOX fan and like Dustin a lot but I will always take a consistent 30HR, 30+ steals to 15-15 with other offensive categories similar. Would you bat Dustin cleanup?

This is a ridiculous conversation. Thinking instead of feeling tells you Hanley is far, far better offensively. To such an extent that you can live with more errors (and he is NOT Julio Lugo with the glove).

I am a BoSox fan living in Toronto and Pedey is one of my favorite players so I may be biased towards Pedey.

Hanley maybe a better player stats wise but Pedey's defence makes him as much valuable.

Question should be would you trade Pedey for Hanley straight up? I wouldn't because Pedey's presence in the middle infield is too good to replace.

It's obviously not an apples-apples comparison, in light of them playing different positions in different leagues. That said, if I had to choose one of the two to build a team around, I think I'd go with Pedroia. The statistical advantage for Ramirez isn't as large as many seem to believe. Pedroia strikes out far less often and has a Gold Glove in his back pocket. And apart from the never-ending debate about intangibles (which I do think Pedroia wins at this point in their careers), Pedrioa has a TANGIBLE history of clutch performance in the post-season.

Just for the record, I'm a Cardinals fan who doesn't think either of them are in the same class with Albert Pujols. :-)

yes, Hanley can hit. but is there anyone that would deny that so can Pedey? ok so he doesn't hit as many home runs, but he drives in just as many as a power hitter. plus his defense is outstanding, while Hanley's is mediocre. Pedroia is surrounded by winners and all-stars, yes. but would the red sox be so good without his off-field presence? in truth Pedey is the personality of the red sox, and effects the whole team, sort of like the way david ortiz does.

He's also a really nice person, and a great role model and i know this because i have met him.

I would not build a team around a second baseman even if it were Utley or Kinsler and both are more productive than Pedroia. I think it's great that Pedroia is nice and a role model but that doesn't make him better and he can't carry a team as some would suggest. Talented players help make others on a team better and the Sox are loaded with talent and they pick each other up. Hanley is the team and the Marlins have competed the past few years. Some would not trade Pedroia for Hanley straight up. WHAT? I would do it in a heartbeat. Let's recall that Hanley was traded for Beckett and Lowell before he was even established. That says something about his talent right there. No team would have traded Beckett/Lowell for Pedroia and probably wouldn't today either. Hanley is the man in this discussion, hands down. I am a huge Pedroia fan but keeping it real.

Hanley is an amazing natural talent - period! But, Pedroia is hard working grinder who NEVER quits! The number are close, but I've heard that Hanley doesn't always give it 100%. Manny and A-Rod are great talents too, but lets face it, natural ability doesn't always give you the upper hand... I'll keep gritty Pedey!

The numbers are close? In what way?

national league vs. american league, juggernaut. if hanley were on the sox, or any other AL team, his numbers might be different. same goes for pedey and the NL. they play 2 very different versions of the same game, so they really aren't so far apart. what do you have against pedroia anyway juggernaut?

Juggernaut is correct in that if Hanley played in Boston he would be even more of a superstar and if Pedroia played for Marlins he would not even be an average second baseman offensively (oh sure good average)maybe not even an NL All-Star and the Marlins would not even be competing as tbey have the past few years. This discussion and the vote thusfar is mind boggling. HELLO?!?!? I'm a huge Dustin fan and like how he plays the game, etc etc etc

Yesterday's game performance with 38,149 in attendance:

Hanley: 1 for 4 with 1 K against 65 mph knuckleball pitcher and 1 fielding error

Pedey: 2 for 5 with 1 run, zero K, flawless defense

Game 2: my next comment by tomorrow

pedroia can hit, hands down. why is everybody sayinng he can't? ok, so he's not the home run hitter that hanley is, but HE CAN HIT! seriously people, Dustin is a great all-around player, his defensive skills are a billion times better than ramirez's. did anyone watch the game last night? the marlins defense is terrible, and hanley's doesn't soften the blow. however, dustin barely ever makes an error. pedey comes through when it matters, when we really need him. hanley doesn't do as well under pressure. overall, Dustin Pedroia is the more reassuring player in every situation except for home runs. if you are doubting Pedroia's ability in any way then you are not a true red sox fan and you shouldn't even be on this web page.

remierez is a good player but makes to many errors at short ... he will be in center field once the marlins get a better feilding s.s..... BUT ,,, give me pedroia any day.. he might not have the GLITS of a hanley or a-fraud but he has what could be sumed up by three words BIG-TIME-CLUTCH !!!!!!!!!!

Really these arguments--as they so often do--come down to an endless argument over the value of talent/numbers vs. intangibles/grit/scrappiness. Talent and raw production are not everything and intangibles DO mean something. But they are not equals. Those who are the best at any craft usually have a combination of three things: talent, luck, and hard work. But talent is always first. The other two can be happened upon or manufactured, but talent cannot. In this case you have one player who is CLEARLY more talented AND productive. The other is CLEARLY harder working, more mentally alert and "scrappy." I'll take talent first.

In the case of Hanley, it is important to realize we are NOT only talking about potential. He HAS fulfilled that potential--he is a remarkably productive player; quite a bit more so than Dustin Pedroia. As I said before, in the course of a long season, there is simply no way that Dustin Pedroia will consistently generate the Win Shares or Runs Created that Hanley Ramirez can--and those that still don't realize that those things DO win games haven't noticed the Yankees getting a whole let better since Mr. Choke, AKA A-Rod, got back. Scrappiness wins a key game here and there. Talent wins games 4-5 times a week.

In fact, their numbers are so different, that THAT is why Dustin Pedroia's "intangibles" and fielding aren't enough. The simple debate topic was "who is better." Hanley Ramirez IS a better baseball player--and I suspect there are few scouts, GMs, managers or other players who would honestly tell you otherwise at this point.

McGreevey, are you implying that pedroia doesn't have talent? you can't play in the majors without talent. pedey is better than hanley because he has talent, he's hard working, and he's more mentally alert. hanley's only got one of those things.
and yes, talent wins games 4 or 5 times a week like you said. but which team is winning 4 or 5 games a week, the sox or the marlins?

Hanley, no contest

im just wondering: does anyone who voted for hanley feel guilty or bad that you turned your backs on your team? that you are traitors? that you are just as bad as johnny damon? that you are fake, unfaithful fans? Pedey is a big part of the red sox, so to write him off like that, you're writing off the whole team and you might as well be a no-good yankees fan.

No, we just know which players are more talented than others. I'm a baseball fan, not a homer.

zeze, if Hanley were batting in the two hole in front of All Stars in a hitter friendly home park he might be an even better player (stats-wise) than he currently is. Throw Pedroia in the cavernous confines of Joe Robbie (I have no idea what they call it now, but it is entirely pitcher friendly, always has been...despite the 'heat' that RSWR thinks will equate to more HRs for Pedroia) with an inexperienced club and see if he's the same player.

The argument that people keep coming back to that Hanley isn't leading his team is ridiculous. They do not, in any way, have the resources of the Red Sox.

In the end, and this is why we have neutral statistics, Hanley has a higher VORP, Win Share, OPS+, and Runs Created by a wide margin, on top of the run of the mill stats that we see. He would significantly improve the Red Sox or any other team and be harder to replace. He is the better player and is more talented. He more than makes up for his occasion defensive miscues with his bat and speed.

Zeze: nope, not implying he has no talent. I am STATING for absolute fact that Ramirez has more. Yes, Pedroia is harder working and a more mentally alert player--and those things mean something...just not enough to tilt the whole assessment in his favor. And the biggest reason the Red Sox win more games than the Marlins is because they are MORE TALENTED and generate BETTER PERFORMANCE. Do you disagree? Or is it all about Hanley and Pedey's singular performances maming their teams win or lose? Do they each get to bat 15 times per game or make 15 put outs/assists? Um, no.
Mango Chutney: Well then, is the purpose of this forum to identify "true believers"? Gosh! Please don't excommunicate me yet. How then, oh Emotional One, does honestly debating a player's level of play, make someone a "traitor?" Would you insist that Julio Lugo is better than Ramirez simply for the sake of loyalty? If so, would you consider joining my fantasy league? Thanks though, for letting me know this is a "Holy War."
Jugg: the one thing I haven't looked into is how much Hanley's defense does detract from his overall value--clearly it must. I do think it is worth noting that GMs across MLB have weighted defense more heavily in their overall evals in the last couple of years. Do I think it's enough to tilt the argument? No, but I'd like to be able to know HOW MUCH it affects it...what do you think?

One addendum: yes, as others have mentioned, I do think it is worth noting that the NL has been inferior to the AL for the last several years. I challenge anyone, however, to state what that means for this debate--at best, it's a tie-breaker type of factoid, not a clear difference maker. It might be meaningful (Edgar Renteria?) or it might not (Pujols--still the best in either league).

Chad, why have you given up commentary? Give me something witty!!

Thanks for the insight KL. Much better to use the small sample size than the >1000 ABs we can evaluate each on.

Mango....See, what USED to be the difference between Red Sox fans and other fans was our knowledge of the game and understanding. While Pedey is certainly a phenominal player, he is not ELITE. Many people would take Kinsler, Utley, or Cano. Arguments can be made for any of them. I personally like Pedroia, but the argument can be there. Is there really many players you would take at SS rather than Hanley? I can see Jeter, but C'mon. Bandwagon fans have to come in and be rah rah only for the Red Sox. Red Sox fans don't need to blindly argue for thier players, but they should support the team, which is the most important thing. The fact that Finn is losing this is a testiment to all the pink hatters running around here.

Dustin iz bettah becuz i met him n he is nice n he tries harder than other playaz n he is more profeissonal then Henley Ramereiz. Henley strike out more which make him not as good as Peddey n Peddy is bettah with defens.

PinkHat, are you, um, female and available to catch a game sometime?

This is like evolution v. creationism. we've successfully created a controversy that doesn't exist. allow some nuance in the discussion like; I love Pedroia but Hanley is better. That's ok to say. It doesn't mean you're disloyal. You can love Pedroia and recognize that he is not the best player in the league.

I think a good exercise would be for people who think Pedroia is better than Hanley, to make a list of players that ARE better than Pedroia so the people in the Hanley crowd can have a little perspective of where the Pedroia folks are coming from.

I'm a huge Pedroia and Sox fan and do not feel my vote for Hanley was being a traitor to Dustin or the team. Didn't think this was an elementary school discussion. Dustin is a huge part of the team but if he were injured and you had to stick someone else in there the Sox would still compete nicely and probably be in the playoffs. He plays on a very good team. If Hanley were injured, the Marlins would be 25 games out right now (maybe that's exaggerating a bit). Comparing Pedroia to each of the other Sox positional players you can argue that he probably has the least impact except for SS. Now if Hanley were playing SS for Boston then Pedroia would probably be at the bottom of the list, below Hanley. No disrespect to Dustin, I think everyone would agree that you would like to have them both on your team. Dustin can also thank Francona for sticking by him in his rookie season when he started off brutally otherwise his career with the Sox could have been over before it even started. Francona used the term Superstar to describe Hanley, would he describe Pedroia, his own player, the same way? Probably not but that doesn't mean he's turning his back on his fellow cribbage player. As a Sox fan, I just hope as he gets older that he can still catch up to that high fastball for hits which has been his bread and butter to date, offensively. YES, he can hit other pitches too.

I see Summer 129 is trashing yet another sox player on here. Irks me when Yankee fans pretend to be sox fans.

I would have thought Hanley was better but reading the comments aside from Sox fans are stupid and this debate is stupid nothing really to reinfornce that argument. Good points for Pedroia were made, seems there is more to argue in Pedroia's favor other then natrual talent. He gets my vote.

Summer129 thinks Pedroia is a phenominal player and personally likes him. I'm a Dustin fan and agree but phenominal may be stretching it a bit. Where's the trashing of him? Because he's not considered ELITE? News Flash - I don't believe any GM would consider Dustin elite. Look, Dustin is very good defensively and maybe his offensive stats for a second baseman are OK but we're still talking 2HR and approx 25 RBI and under .300 average after 2.5 months of the season. Not Elite. In general, there are very few good offensive second basemen around and if there were more, well, not sure Pedroia would be an All Star. Several are good defensively.

LCP: No prob with you but no she doesn't and she is listed under troll board on sawxhead for her ripping of RS players.

This romantic view of our own guys, to the detriment of cold analysis, is what symbolized the team we cheer for for decades--and major reason they never won. That, along with dozens of other irrational, but feel-good assessments are the reason that 1) our team usually did looked better on paper that it performed on the field and 2) the Yankees--with brutal but coldly analytical, smart upper management always won. The question here was simple: who is better. I have seen lots or rationale of why people LIKE Pedroia better and lots of talk of accolades etc...but very little (aside from fielding) FACT to establish why he's actually BETTER. Sentimentality and feeling have their place in sport but if they overrule your simple assessment of talent and peformance...you'd be a great candidate to emulate the late 1930s Red Sox as GM--if you're lucky and have a lot of $. MikeV is right--this is the cultures of intangibles and stats arguing right past each other...and it's all opinion in the end, so I guess that's just fine. I just hope that if I ever manage a team, I sincerely hope one of the 256 of you who voted on the right-hand side are opposing me...

Bucknernomore: Thanks for the info. I'm new at this and will have to watch out for that one. Thanks. Still wish you would change your vote on this one though. I hope that neither Hanley or Dustin reads these comments as it may destroy their psyche.

Chad, next up: Pedey versus an amalgamated superclone of Nap Lajoie/Rogers Hornsby/Ryne Sandberg. Make that challenge if you dare!

Laughing. Yeah they are both great players and well suited for their perspective teams. I doubt they have time to read these though with their travel. DP looked better last night, more seasoned for sure that helped my vote.

My point was actually that this argument was created as if there is a reasonable discussion.

Baseball is not as subjective as it used to be. It used to be that men would go watch a guy play and project how good/valuable he would be by watching him throw, run, hit, talking to him, etc. That still has value but the analysis of talent has developed and now there are very exact, analytical ways to project and compare players.

In the end, Dustin Pedroia is a great player and one I love to root for and am pumped he plays for the Red Sox and will hopefully play for them for a long time. That said, there is NO GM in baseball that would rather have Pedroia than Hanley. Not one.

How many of you Fantasy Players would draft Dustin Pedroia over Hanley Ramirez??? That is why Hanley was the #1 ranked player, because he is a special offensive talent.

After 2 games, Pedey still outperformed Hanley & won 2 out of 2 with one game to go.
Hanley: 1 for 7, 1 run, 2 BB, 1 K, 1 E
Pedey: 5 for 10, 1 run, 3 RBI, zero K & E

Anyone check the disparity in stats between these two players lately?

Such a stupid argument, as they are very different players - playing different positions - in different cities.

Dustin Pedroia has proved his mettle on the BIGGEST STAGE, in a media crazed city and come out with flying colors. Ramirez is a very talented stats machine, that is playing in a weak division, on a weak team, with no real pressure on him.

If I were starting a team tomorrow from scratch, Ramirez would be near the top of my list. But if I had a solid Shortstop already, and for the money - Pedroia is a STEAL.

Hanley has the tools and talent to become the best player in the majors, all he needs is to put his mind set and work on his defence and leadership, and talk more to the press

You Sox fans are truly amazing! How can you dare compare Hanley to Little Chicken Pedroia? I don't care if Chicken has won the ROY and MVP awards, Hanly's talent is wayyyyyy beyond that of Pedroia. To compare both is sacrileigious...

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