Pap needs something softer, as a third pitch. Unless you are Rivera, with the cutter, and great control, you can't keep relying on velocity against ML
hitters. Everything he throws is hard.


The ability to change speeds, just for a different look, would help him.

He's working on the slider now as his third pitch, after the fastball and the splitter. Getting the movement back on his fastball is going to be key though. I know Mauer is in the zone right now, but when Paps fastball is riding it doesn't end up where the batter thinks and is unhittable. He's hittable now. The pitch to Mauer was 94 and was up and in. But it was pretty straight.

They are both wrong
Folks it's all about what you feel comfortable with. It just maybe that the past 2 outings his other pitches were not working in the BP.
He's had 2 games in a where he gave up 2 2 run HRs in 2 innings prior to that he had 9 with 0 runs in 9 /3 innings.

SIX earned runs in 21 innings all year only 18 hits and 11 walks 24 Ks has a 2.57 ERA and 12 of 13 saves. He is tied with 4 others for saves.
Right now he is the best in the AL

What in God's name are you complaining about. The law of averages catches up to you sooner or later.

The fact that Papelbon has changed his delivery - and is getting different action on his fastball as a result - is not a complaint, it's an observation. Something Joe Sixpack might not notice, but something a fan truly knowledgeable about baseball will notice. I guess we'll see how many astute people are on this board...

You know what? I son't think he's mixing his pitches. I think he (and Varutek)wants to blow everyone away with his fastball.
But unless he locates better,he and Varitek better have a plan "B". I think they are just being too predictable!

I think he needs to add an off speed pitch as he ages his velocity will drop, and if hitters are sitting dead red on a fast ball they'll take him deep and we'll see a lot of blow saves and "W's" that turn into "L's."

Pap should be suspened for running on to the field of play SAt. night.

Forget the two homers. Paps appearances since last year have been more adventurous than the first two years.He hardly ever gets through any inning three up three down like before. His location is ok but his fast ball used to explode at the plate . I was watching some tape of his first year and the difference is startling. His fastballs used to rise at the end or at least appear to. Now they look flat.
Another thing to remmeber, Now there seems to be dozens of pitchers in the league that throw at least 95 and Pap is consistently around 93 and 94. Maybe batters have just adjusted. He needs more variety by adding a change up and a good curveball.

After blowing Saturday's save, Papelbum did a redfaced, shirt- ripping charge from the dugout to protest a close call at second that helped seal his loss. Totally uncalled for, siddown and reflect on your pitch choice instead of unloading on the umps. Guy is wild in the zone and too enamored of his own stats as well.

The 93-95 fastball is not the 97-99 fastball he commanded his first two years. I believe he is doing this to save his shoulder from subflexing.

This may be a deliberate attempt to save his shoulder, but as others have noted, this means he needs to pitch instead of throw, thus the need for the off speed stuff.

Stay away from mid-plate. Change speeds.

Holy cow!!! Don't worry about Paplebon..Even the best of pitchers in relief go thru a rough spot, but he does need to learn a 3rd pitch.....

regardless whether it is Pap or tek's fault, the guy has to throw other pitches besides the heater. A splitter isw really key and a good slider would really make a difference. Professional hitters are now sitting on his fastball

Two keys: throw strikes (avoid walks & two-run plus homers) and mix-up his pitches (not fastballs all the time; even non-home run hitters have been hitting it out, just sitting on his fastball)

Pap is a one pitch pitcher - he cannot reliably throw his slider or splitter for strikes. No one pitch pitcher has ever lasted many years. Rivera for example throws a fastball and cutter. The splitter could be a great second pitch because of the velocity difference between it and his fastball, but he cannot get the splitter over the plate. It also seems Pap is got this ego thing going on where he wants to punch out every hitter with his fastball.

I think the slider is an interesting and promising new development in the arsenal, but he has abandoned the splitter. If he had all three pitches available, the fastball would be much less hittable.

Any major league hitter has the potential to hit even a great fastball if he knows it is coming. Even Nolan Ryan - whose fastball dwarfs Pap's fastball - threw a curveball to keep hitters off balance!

It goes no farther than the Manager as far as all the questions about pitch selection. Pap recently had a save, maybe 3 chances ago, where the slider was working quite well. Papelbon was quoted as saying that Francona told him, "If you're going to lose, don't do it with that (slider) pitch." I don't think either his splitter or slider is refined enough at this point to be reliable. His fastball, however, is a proven commodity. Given time and seasoning, he may well work all three equally, but as it stand his fastball is #1, and the other two are well behind.

Oh, and I didn't vote for either of you. Both missed the obvious, there is NOTHING wrong with him, he can't post a sub-1 ERA every year! Under 2.5 is fantastic for a closer, under 3 is still good. Under 1 is ungodly and rare, but you will usually see one closer per year do it.

Sounds like a Varitek hater trying to blame Tek for Paps recent issues. If Pap is throwing the wrong pitch, then it's Pap's fault.

Papelbon will be fine. This is the stage of the season where hitters and pitchers start making adjustments. Some adjustments work, others don't.

Pap pitches too much with emotion and too little with craftiness. He needs an emotional workover to stay a great closer."

Florida Jim: There is alot of room for complaint with Papelbon this season. Not even counting the 2-run homer to Mauer and the Mets game. He has not pitched that well, always an adventure this year. I have 20% confidence in him.

Where did his splitter go? It used to be a devestating pitch and he could throw it for strikes...now it is rarely seen and is always in the dirt.

If I'm facing Papelbon, I know I'm getting 99% fastballs. Easy to sit on it, even at 96 MPH, especially when it's straight!
He needs to learn to be a pitcher, not a thrower. The key to getting guys out? Keep their timing off-balance by mixing in some off-speed stuff.

Maybe he's just been pitching long enough that the better hitters have somewhat of a read on him. I think the guy from the Mets Saturday got lucky. I think that was a case of s*** happens. But come on. Mauer's taken a lot of good pitcher deep in his career. Sometimes, ya know, the hitter wins.

There is no question he has lost some of his control. His walks and number of pitches per inning are dramatically up.
And hitters are sitting on the fastball because he has lost command of his splitter, and is often behind on the count.
With so many baserunners, his complete lack in holding runners will be badly exploited in postseason.

Papelbon needs to stop thinking of himself as the best closer in baseball and all the money he thinks he deserves and just play the game.

My take is that Beck and Paps both blow off Tek. Ive seen the shake off all 2 many times.

Pabs will be fine in time, Bck on the other hand will continue with his hot and cold the colder streaks of the past two years. His ego gets in his way.

My take is Tek needs to demand the pitches from both of them...

The pitch that left the ballpark yesterday was supposed to be inside as Tek set up for it. That's the catcher making a bad call. Hitters adjust for pitchers. Pitchers need to do the same thing.

papelbon is fine. he's not as good as advertised, and not as bad as his recent outings. he's no rivera (adjusted for age), and probably never will be. but he's still a very good closer.

I think he needs to talk less and work more on his game

it's 3 things:
location location location

The location of the pitch to Mauer was decent, it was a 94mph fastball up and in. The problem is that it was a straight fastball. Paps has good velocity and good location, but he no longer has the late, explosive movement with his fastball.

HOLY CRIPES!
My opinion?
All this nonsense about Papelbon needing to “learn a new pitch” has me wondering WHAT you people are watching (or smoking). He’s throwing MORE sliders now than ever before. He’s doing exactly what so many blowhards were crying about last year.
He also throws a split, but the FACT remains that his fastball still remains HIS best pitch. He’s a closer, so every time he’s in the game, conceivably the outcome is in question. Any manager (Tito included) will tell his closer “if they’re going to hit you, make them hit your best pitch”.
OF COURSE he needs to further develop his slider. He’s doing that. and throwing more of them as he gains proficiency and confidence with it.
I have also noticed his fastballs do not consistently have the same late movement they did 2 years ago. It’s there, just not every time. It was that way last season as well, so we can’t blame it on any “new” mechanics instituted this year. It could be as simple as where / how he’s gripping the ball.
So, to answer the question What’s wrong with Papelbon?:
Nothing at all..... it’s called pitching, and it’s never perfect, despite what so many blowhard fantasy-baseball types might think. Guess what... EVERY pitcher will give up hits, and some will be home runs.. Get over it.
To blame Tek for Pap throwing so many fastballs is idiotic. No matter what sign he puts down, if the pitcher doesn’t have confidence in throwing it, it won’t get thrown.
Pap is evolving, refining his game, adding, tweeking, all is normal.

Steve, I'm not sure if you ever pitched but pitching is never 'normal.' Your shoulder hurts so you change your mechanics then your elbow hurts so you change your mechanics then your fastball straightens out (that's where we are at now) and you change your mechanics.

There ***is*** something wrong with Papelbon, he's not getting swings and misses, he's hittable. And he needs to fix that.

Agree 100% with Havanaclub. Late movement on fastball awol, and likely due to Pap's adjustments. Also, Pap's other pitches--considering ability to locate--still mediocre and may never become first-rate. 95-96 mph with late movement in strike zone, can tolerate occasional "right down the middle".

What is that little jump paps takes now after he tosses the ball...I think it interferes with his follow through. Im no expert, but thats the only hitch i see...and its significant...he hops left. what is that...????

Hitters sit back and wait for a fastball that will be over the plate. They are major leaguers and all can hit the gas. Paps needs to develop a change up or he is going to flareout quickly. This changeup will give him confidence and the mound and will keep hitters guessing as to whats coming rather than knowing.

I'm not sure if these boards allow the posting of links to other boards, but here's a pretty good analysis of Paps' mechanics (with graphics) from SoSH.

http://sonsofsamhorn.net/index.php?showtopic=43937&st=20&p=2242399&#entry2242399

Back when the Orioles had the 4 20 game winners, pitching coach Ray Miller said there were 3 keys to success: Work fast, throw strikes, change speeds. Papelbon does none of those.

Papelbon's Ks per 9 innings since becoming closer;

2006 - 9.88
2007 - 12.97
2008 - 10
2009 - 10.29

You don't maintain that without getting swings and misses.

I will concede that his ERA, WHIP and BAA have all been slowly rising each of the past 3 seasons.

If he isn't blowing guys away, then he is ineffective as a closer. If his shoulder is a problem , then it's a problem and his effectiveness as a closer can not be justified. Change his role and get a new closer.

CTChiefDog, I'm sure you can see that batters are hitting Papelbon more now. Here's the proof.

"But what might be most troubling is that batters simply aren't swinging and missing as they once did. Since 2006, the first full year Papelbon spent in the bullpen, no pitcher made batters swing and miss at a higher rate. Batters whiffed on 27.6 percent of their swings, followed by Rudy Seanez at 27 percent, and Eric Gagne at 26.2 percent.

Now? It's not so automatic. Batters have swung at 85 of Papelbon's pitches this season, and missed 18 times for a 21.2 rate. That leaves him tied with Manny Delcarmen for 29th in baseball." - Amalie Benjamin

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2009/04/27/more_pitches_for_papelbon/

But, with 5 more swings and misses, now his rate is 27%. That's not a very large margin. About every 18 swings, he needs one more miss...I'm not seeing a very large difference there, regardless of how the paid writer presents it.

29th in baseball? I'm figuring there are roughly 300 pitchers in baseball on rosters right now...again, 29th seems pretty darn good to me. I understand he's set the bar ridiculously high for himself, but I think the fans, and media, are being a little unfair. He's 12/13 in save chances, he's getting the outs when they matter (aside from a backup C from the NYM...bastard).

he is working on establishing his slider more often, which is also messing with the fastball. i would rather him do so now than in october

I'm telling you, man, the movement of a fastball is almost as important as its location. And Paps fastball has straightened out. (Papi just doubled, hallelujah! :)

In last year's playoffs against the Rays, it wasn't just that Becketts velocity was down to 92, it was that his fastball straightened out because he couldn't get the torque on it because of his back/oblique injury.

Straight fastballs get drilled.

This story only goes away when Paps makes an adjustment. I'm sure he's aware of it and that he's working on it.

in my humble opinion, the problem with pap is location, location, location! apparently he has changed his delivery to decrease the wear on his arm, which is a good idea, so he is still working out the kinks, but i've seen a lot more pitches where variteck sets up outside and pap throws it either down the heart or in the inner half, more times this year than all of last year. now granted, its still going 92-95 with late movement, so its hard to hit, but the lack of hitting location basically removes any sort of scouting hitters. he is still getting saves galore so its not like he fell off the map like big papi. he'll figure things out by the all star break and then we can shut down this chat

Goodbye Jonathan....Hello Bard.

papelbons problem ??? stop trying to throw that F**KEN FORKBALL...

Hey you Suck Fans. After you mention Rivera wash your mouth and hands! He is in a class by himself! You wanna know what's wrong with Paperbum? He depends on his fastball and even if he threw at 100 MPH, they'll sit on it and hit it a mile. He is like a kid out there whose candy has just been taken away. He needs to mature, to grow. He is NOT in the same class as Mariano, who is in a class all by himself. They will one day honor the top relievers with the MARIANO RIVERA RELIEF AWARD! Until then, Paperbum will remain in his shade....

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